Page 8 of 15

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:54 pm
by astro_wanabe
bluedog46 wrote:
astro_wanabe wrote:I don't think I ever really did find an answer, so I'm just curious if anybody has come across case law or anything defining what "loaded" means in DE? Are loaded mags, seperate from rifle, ok or do the mags have to be empty too? Just wondering.

My understanding ( i could be wrong) without a ccdw you can have a loaded mag in a seperate place from the gun inself. I have heard in maryland both ways from differengt sources. One said a loaded mag is a no no. The other said that a loaded mag must in another part of the car. put the gun in the trunk and mag in the glove box.

I would like clarification myself.
Nice necroposting ;) Like always, I Am Not A Lawyer.
For transport within DE handguns & handgun mags can be loaded or unloaded under state law, doesn't matter, only the handgun is regulated (not the handgun mag, note the ammo restriction in Wilmington though). When transporting handguns if you have a CCDW they can be within easy access "on or about" your person or stored away from you, concealed or open, doesn't matter. W/o a CCDW the handgun must either be open carried or stored someplace not "on or about" your person (like a trunk or somewhere you couldn't access). So with or without CCDW doesn't matter, I haven't found any codes specifically restricting the handguns & handgun mags being loaded. (Note Dover's prohibition on unlicensed carry, so no unlicensed OC there, must be stored away from you).

Long guns can never even touch a vehicle while loaded, and none of the mags capable of fitting in the long guns you're transporting can be loaded. This brings up an interesting point - what if your handgun & long gun both use the same mag (such as a pistol-caliber carbine)? Doesn't matter if the magazine is intended for use solely in the handgun, if it can fit in the long gun it can not be loaded. So if your long gun uses the same mags as your carry handgun it's just too bad, mag must be unloaded.

As for MD I don't know, but there's this document from the MD Attorney General's Office: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agop ... ehicle.pdf Unfortunately that isn't an official AG Opinion, and even AG Opinions are mere opinions rather than law or precedent. Also the firearm itself would still need to be transported in accordance with the other regulations, which seems near impossible. Until Maryland drastically overhauls their code with regard to firearms I think it's safe to always err on the side of caution & assume something is illegal unless it absolutely, clearly, unequivocally isn't.

For interstate transport (just passing through a state) you can use the provisions of the Fed transport law, but you must also comply with the requirements. Unloaded gun & mag in locked case, ammo locked in seperate case, not accessible, must be legal in departure & destination states, restrictions on what constitutes normal passing through versus making the state a destination.

If you need code quotes let me know.

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:15 am
by bmel17
astro_wanabe wrote:Long guns can never even touch a vehicle while loaded, and none of the mags capable of fitting in the long guns you're transporting can be loaded. This brings up an interesting point - what if your handgun & long gun both use the same mag (such as a pistol-caliber carbine)? Doesn't matter if the magazine is intended for use solely in the handgun, if it can fit in the long gun it can not be loaded. So if your long gun uses the same mags as your carry handgun it's just too bad, mag must be unloaded.



For interstate transport (just passing through a state) you can use the provisions of the Fed transport law, but you must also comply with the requirements. Unloaded gun & mag in locked case, ammo locked in seperate case, not accessible, must be legal in departure & destination states, restrictions on what constitutes normal passing through versus making the state a destination.

If you need code quotes let me know.
A loaded long gun can be in your vehicle once you posses a CCDW. No restrictions on what you may carry for SD, unless the deadly weapon itself is illegal in DE.



TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 926A

§ 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.


Only one item (firearm or ammo) must be locked up in the case of a vehicle without a seperate compartment(ie a trunk).

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:28 am
by astro_wanabe
bmel17 wrote:A loaded long gun can be in your vehicle once you posses a CCDW. No restrictions on what you may carry for SD, unless the deadly weapon itself is illegal in DE.
Code: Select all
7 Del. C. § 708. Loaded firearms prohibited in or on motor vehicles, motorboats or farm machinery. 

No person shall have a loaded shotgun or rifle in that person's possession in, against or on any automobile, other vehicle, any piece of farm machinery, motorboat while under power, sailboat while under power, or have any ammunition in the magazine or chamber of such shotgun or rifle except when it is otherwise lawful to hunt crippled migratory birds from a motorboat as permitted by federal law.
I don't see the exemption for CCDW holders, it simply says "No person", is there some other code w/ the exemption? No sepecific prohibition on what you can carry for SD (except for Wilmington's ammo restriction), but if your SD handgun's mag works in the rifle, then it can't be loaded because it would also be a "magazine .. of such .. rifle" even if you don't intend it to be used in the rifle.
bmel17 wrote:TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 926A

§ 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.


Only one item (firearm or ammo) must be locked up in the case of a vehicle without a seperate compartment(ie a trunk).
Thankyou for the correction, that's what I get for going off the NRA's site rather than pulling up the actual code myself.

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:50 am
by bmel17
astro_wanabe wrote: I don't see the exemption for CCDW holders, it simply says "No person", is there some other code w/ the exemption? No sepecific prohibition on what you can carry for SD, but if your SD handgun's mag works in the rifle, then it can't be loaded because it would also be a "magazine .. of such .. rifle" even if you don't intend it to be used in the rifle.
That law you cited is to prevent poaching and is a game law. It's a tack on or a reason for the game warden to inspect your license, cite a fine, stop illegal harvesting of game, etc.

TITLE 7

Conservation

Game, Wildlife and Dogs

CHAPTER 7. REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS CONCERNING GAME AND FISH
If your not hunting, poaching, or doing anything associated with those activities you don't have to worry.

The CCDW is for when actually hunting. You can have a SD weapon. Just not a handgun you can hunt with.

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:07 pm
by astro_wanabe
bmel17 wrote:That law you cited is to prevent poaching and is a game law. It's a tack on or a reason for the game warden to inspect your license, cite a fine, stop illegal harvesting of game, etc.
No, it's a Class C environmental misdemeanor:
Code: Select all
7 Del. C. §1304:
(a) Violations of Chapters 1, 5, 6 and 7 and of subchapter I of Chapter 11 of this title or Department orders, rules or regulations promulgated to implement provisions of these chapters are designated as environmental misdemeanors. 

(b) Notwithstanding the classification of misdemeanors in § 4202(a) of Title 11, environmental misdemeanors are classified for the purpose of sentencing into 4 categories: 

(1) Class A environmental misdemeanors;
(2) Class B environmental misdemeanors;
(3) Class C environmental misdemeanors;
(4) Class D environmental misdemeanors.

(c) Any violation of Chapters 1, 5, 6 or 7 or of subchapter I of Chapter 11 of this title for which there is no prescribed penalty shall be a class C environmental misdemeanor.

(f) Any person convicted of a class C environmental misdemeanor shall be fined not less than $50, nor more than $250, plus the costs of prosecution and court costs, or such person shall be imprisoned for up to 10 days, or such person shall be both fined and imprisoned according to the foregoing limitations. Any person convicted of a class C environmental misdemeanor within 5 years of a prior conviction for a class C or greater environmental misdemeanor shall be fined not less than $100, nor more than $500, plus the costs of prosecution and court costs, or such person shall be imprisoned for up to 20 days, or such person shall be both fined and imprisoned according to the foregoing limitations.
That's 1 misdemeanor, 1 fine, and 1 prison sentence more than I'd like to be stuck with. Oh, and under § 1301 anyone with a hunting or fishing license can arrest you without warrant, and under § 1313 all sherriffs, sherriff deputies, constables, and peace officers are also empowered to enforce these sections, not just game wardens.
bmel17 wrote:
TITLE 7

Conservation

Game, Wildlife and Dogs

CHAPTER 7. REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS CONCERNING GAME AND FISH
If your not hunting, poaching, or doing anything associated with those activities you don't have to worry.
What you quoted is merely a chapter title, and AFAIK they have absolutely no restrictive powers on the actual operative codes contained therein. For example, the 2nd Ammendment has a preamble - "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,..." This preamble exists in the Constitution and explains why the ammendment exists, but doesn't restrict the operable part of the ammendment. In fact the actual text of surrounding codes imply that the chapter title doesn't posses such restrictive powers either, as the legislature saw fit to pass 2 sections of code - 1 prohibiting hunting from vehicles (§ 707) and one prohibiting loaded rifles/shotguns in vehicles generally (§ 708).

This actually makes sense and is inline with the intent of the section. For example, it would be easy to shoot out your window at something very quickly, then deny that you were actually in the vehicle when you took the shot when questioned later. They prohibited long guns in vehicles completely, apparently so that even if the warden doesn't see you hunting from the vehicle (or if he caught you before you actually committed the act) it would still be a violation by simply possesing the loaded firearm in your vehicle. If loaded long guns were only prohibited while hunting you could just say you weren't hunting and escape the punishment.

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:47 pm
by bmel17
Again the TITLE of those set of laws is concerning game and fish. Thats what sets the scene of the laws in that section. Those laws deal with specific situations for hunting/poaching/fishing etc.

Sorry but if I have a loaded firearm in my trunk, because I feel I need backup of the rifle caliber, and I am on my way to the grocery store- that has nothing to do concerning GAME OR FISH as the title of that section of laws pertains too.

Now if I am sitting on the side of the road and have a spotlight and a loaded longgun with all my stuff to gut a deer, they got a pretty clear case that I'm poaching.

I'm pretty sure by your reasoning that you've never hunted before...
This actually makes sense and is inline with the intent of the section. For example, it would be easy to shoot out your window at something very quickly, then deny that you were actually in the vehicle when you took the shot when questioned later. They prohibited long guns in vehicles completely, apparently so that even if the warden doesn't see you hunting from the vehicle (or if he caught you before you actually committed the act) it would still be a violation by simply possesing the loaded firearm in your vehicle. If loaded long guns were only prohibited while hunting you could just say you weren't hunting and escape the punishment.
While partially true, if the game warden or an officer sees you carting home a deer when your dressed in a hoody and jeans, AFTER dark, with no camo, no regular hunting accessories, spotlights, and reports of a vehicle that was just illegally hunting.... well I think you get the idea.

Hunting, is a right and is regulated. There are specifics to hunting and thats what these laws are for. When and where and how. These are covered pretty well in the state's hunter safety course. I learned about these laws when I took that course. If theses laws pertained to those not hunting, I'm pretty sure they would have been covered thouroghly in the CCDW course with the code handed out as all pertinant laws were.

If you are heading to the range here in DE, and have loaded up mags ready for the range action, you are clearly not hunting.

I guess we all better be careful though, handgun hunting is legal in DE too. If I'm parked on the road with my 6 inch 357 am I guilty of hunting from a vehicle? Violation of 707? But not 708 since it doesn't cover handguns?

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:16 pm
by astro_wanabe
bmel17 wrote:Again the TITLE of those set of laws is concerning game and fish. Thats what sets the scene of the laws in that section. Those laws deal with specific situations for hunting/poaching/fishing etc.
I was looking for case law to refute your analysis of headings, but then I found that the Legislature already took care of that:
Code: Select all
1 Del. C. § 305. Classification and arrangement. 

The classification and organization of the titles, parts, chapters, subchapters, and sections of this Code, and the headings thereto, are made for the purpose of convenient reference and orderly arrangement, and no implication, inference or presumption of a legislative construction shall be drawn therefrom.  

§ 306. Analyses of titles, parts, chapters, subchapters and sections; section headings; notes. 

The various analyses set out in this Code, constituting enumerations or lists of the titles, parts, chapters, subchapters and sections of this Code, and the descriptive headings or catchlines immediately preceding or within the texts of the individual sections of this Code, except the section numbers included in the headings or catchlines immediately preceding the texts of such sections, do not constitute part of the law. All derivation and other notes set out in this Code are given for the purpose of convenient reference, and do not constitute part of the law. 
The name of the chapter is absolutely meaningless. It could be called "how to paint a pokadot chevrolet while unicycling" and it would have the same lack of effect. If the legislature wanted 7 Del. C. §708 to apply only while hunting or in relation to hunting, they needed to say that. They chose not to. Thus, it does not.
bmel17 wrote:Hunting, is a right and is regulated. There are specifics to hunting and thats what these laws are for. When and where and how. These are covered pretty well in the state's hunter safety course. I learned about these laws when I took that course. If theses laws pertained to those not hunting, I'm pretty sure they would have been covered thouroghly in the CCDW course with the code handed out as all pertinant laws were.
(Rant On) No offense to you personally, but the recent trend in people claiming "my instructor did/didn't say such-an-such" sickens and frightens me. I have to rely on what the code and case law actually says, not what somebody thinks it might say or mean. It is quite apparent that the CCDW classes are serving to instill a false sense of legal security, where recipients have undergone State-sanctioned training and believe themselves to be "trained" correctly in the State's laws. You can be a lawyer and still not know all the laws, we don't need gun carriers to have a false sense of what's legal and getting themselves into trouble. I know that I don't know the law 100% and that I therefore need to spend time learning it. How many CCDW holders think they do know the law and don't seek to better their legal understanding? Yet another reason in my book for permitless carry, where atleast a person's false sense of legal security won't be State sanctioned.(Rant Off)

As for 7 Del. C. §708 specifically, it probably wasn't covered in the CCDW class because people don't generally CC rifles and the instructor either didn't know of it, didn't understand it, or didn't think it was relevant to your class. It was included in the hunter's safety course because it would most likely come into play for hunters, not because that's the only place it's applicable.
bmel17 wrote:I guess we all better be careful though, handgun hunting is legal in DE too. If I'm parked on the road with my 6 inch 357 am I guilty of hunting from a vehicle? Violation of 707? But not 708 since it doesn't cover handguns?
#1 & #2 Yes I.M.O. that would be a blatant violation of 707. #3. If that specific firearm is regulated as a handgun then correct, it wouldn't violate §708, unless you also have a long gun in the car that uses the same magazine, then it would violate §708.

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:50 pm
by bmel17
Well if you'd really like to get technical:
§ 306. Analyses of titles, parts, chapters, subchapters and sections; section headings; notes.

The various analyses set out in this Code, constituting enumerations or lists of the titles, parts, chapters, subchapters and sections of this Code, and the descriptive headings or catchlines immediately preceding or within the texts of the individual sections of this Code, except the section numbers included in the headings or catchlines immediately preceding the texts of such sections, do not constitute part of the law. All derivation and other notes set out in this Code are given for the purpose of convenient reference, and do not constitute part of the law.
§ 708. Loaded firearms prohibited in or on motor vehicles, motorboats or farm machinery.
No person shall have a loaded shotgun or rifle in that person's possession in, against or on any automobile, other vehicle, any piece of farm machinery, motorboat while under power, sailboat while under power, or have any ammunition in the magazine or chamber of such shotgun or rifle except when it is otherwise lawful to hunt crippled migratory birds from a motorboat as permitted by federal law.
That sure seems like a catchphrase preceding the text of that section. So are are loaded firearms illegal in a motor vehicle?

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:07 pm
by astro_wanabe
bmel17 wrote:Well if you'd really like to get technical:
§ 306. Analyses of titles, parts, chapters, subchapters and sections; section headings; notes.

The various analyses set out in this Code, constituting enumerations or lists of the titles, parts, chapters, subchapters and sections of this Code, and the descriptive headings or catchlines immediately preceding or within the texts of the individual sections of this Code, except the section numbers included in the headings or catchlines immediately preceding the texts of such sections, do not constitute part of the law. All derivation and other notes set out in this Code are given for the purpose of convenient reference, and do not constitute part of the law.
§ 708. Loaded firearms prohibited in or on motor vehicles, motorboats or farm machinery.
No person shall have a loaded shotgun or rifle in that person's possession in, against or on any automobile, other vehicle, any piece of farm machinery, motorboat while under power, sailboat while under power, or have any ammunition in the magazine or chamber of such shotgun or rifle except when it is otherwise lawful to hunt crippled migratory birds from a motorboat as permitted by federal law.
That sure seems like a catchphrase preceding the text of that section. So are are loaded firearms illegal in a motor vehicle?
Titles are general in nature (as required by law) so as to only generally refer to what's in them, allowing the codes themselves to be more specific. Yes, loaded firearms are illegal in vehicles - specifically, rifles & shotguns, which fall under the general descriptor "firearms".

Re: Transporting Firearms

PostPosted:Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:13 pm
by bmel17
astro_wanabe wrote:Titles are general in nature (as required by law) so as to only generally refer to what's in them, allowing the codes themselves to be more specific. Yes, loaded firearms are illegal in vehicles - specifically, rifles & shotguns, which fall under the general descriptor "firearms".
But it also generally outlaws the carrying of ANY loaded firearm. It doesn't say you can carry a loaded pistol. Much like § 1442. Carrying a concealed deadly weapon; specifically outlaws CC without a permit. However it does not say it is illegal to carry a deadly weapon, then specifically outlaws CC. It states CC is the only thing illegal. Which as we all know doesn't prohibit OC.

The statute you posted has the exception in it which points to the catchphrase preceding the text is part of the law.
astro_wanabe wrote:(Rant On) No offense to you personally, but the recent trend in people claiming "my instructor did/didn't say such-an-such" sickens and frightens me. I have to rely on what the code and case law actually says, not what somebody thinks it might say or mean. It is quite apparent that the CCDW classes are serving to instill a false sense of legal security, where recipients have undergone State-sanctioned training and believe themselves to be "trained" correctly in the State's laws. You can be a lawyer and still not know all the laws, we don't need gun carriers to have a false sense of what's legal and getting themselves into trouble. I know that I don't know the law 100% and that I therefore need to spend time learning it. How many CCDW holders think they do know the law and don't seek to better their legal understanding? Yet another reason in my book for permitless carry, where atleast a person's false sense of legal security won't be State sanctioned.(Rant Off)
I agree with you 100%, no offense taken, but I'm not saying those classes were the only things that I heard and moved on. It seems you took it that way from my post. I obviously read the laws as I am taking the time to show you what I see. You had the same mentality a few posts ago when you took the word of the NRA and professed it as law.