If you have a particular encounter with another citizen or LEO, post it here.
 #26391  by Mr.Skellington
 
I agree Stephpd,

I just want to try and figure out if there are any ways which a search could be construed as legal by a empty holster in plain sight. I'm not suggesting that there was a RAS in the OP. I'm really stretching to come up with anything at all. I've got nothing.

To do this I'd have to conjure up various scenarios in which a RAS would warrant conduct such as this.


Hypothetical:
A shooting on the highway has taken place with no ID of a suspect or vehicle.
Police notice an empty holster on the dash of a car in the area of shooting.
Could this be construed as a RAS?
I'd think not but others may differ on this.

Well time for me to go to work.
Can you think of any circumstances where a empty holster could warrant a search?
 #26392  by cappilot06
 
If an empty holster warrants a search then an empty gun-rack in a truck should warrant the same search. Doubt they would stop a guy with an empty gun-rack but the same argument should apply.
 #26393  by Tate
 
I knew i could have refused and had them go through the hassle of trying to get a search warrant that prob wouldnt be issued. But in the past ive had a friend do this(when i was about 18), and we waited for a good hour, then they tore the truck apart and threw everything onto the side of the road. Told us have a good day and left. So i just went along with it, so i could go home.
 #26398  by George
 
Mr.Skellington wrote:I agree Stephpd,

I just want to try and figure out if there are any ways which a search could be construed as legal by a empty holster in plain sight. I'm not suggesting that there was a RAS in the OP. I'm really stretching to come up with anything at all. I've got nothing.

To do this I'd have to conjure up various scenarios in which a RAS would warrant conduct such as this.


Hypothetical:
A shooting on the highway has taken place with no ID of a suspect or vehicle.
Police notice an empty holster on the dash of a car in the area of shooting.
Could this be construed as a RAS?
I'd think not but others may differ on this.

Well time for me to go to work.
Can you think of any circumstances where a empty holster could warrant a search?
they will search a car for drugs if they see steel wool in the car as the steel wool is used as a filter. IMO an empty holster (not permanently mounted) would probably be accepted as probable cause, however I would argue that a child seat in the back wouldn't be PC that I had a baby in the trunk
 #26399  by Tony T
 
Since the supreme court recently ruled that open carry in and of itself is not probable cause I don't see how a mere empty holster would be. And you really don't see many criminals using holsters.

Then again, I guess Delaware LEO's don't run into too many people open carrying. Mostly just us.
 #26402  by stephpd
 
I've been thinking and thinking about this and all I can come up with is the fact that Tate provide information that aroused the suspicion of the officer that something wasn't right. Telling the officer about the holster, when there is no law that we even inform them of any firearms in the vehicle, could be used as a reason to think something is wrong.

For general information I'll post here what lawyers say about a Terry Stop and RAS (Reasonable Articulate Suspicion)

http://www.halloran-sage.com/News/story ... oryid=2309

Under the state and federal constitutions, a police officer may briefly detain an individual for investigative purposes if the officer has a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the individual has committed or is about to commit a crime.(1) These investigative detentions are commonly referred to as “Terry” stops. During a stop, the officer may conduct a pat down search (frisk) of the suspect for weapons, if he/she reasonably believes the suspect is potentially armed and dangerous. It is important that officers understand that once a stop is made it is additional articulable suspicion that gives the officer the authority to conduct a search of an individual.

Reasonable and articulable suspicion requires that the investigating officer “be able to point to specific and identifiable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts,” provide “a particularized and objective basis” for suspecting that criminal activity is afoot.(2) It is important that the officer document the specific and identifiable facts that support the articulable suspicion. Circumstances giving rise to a reasonable and articulate suspicion frequently involve some of the following: nervous, furtive or evasive behavior; unprovoked flight; knowledge of the site as a location of certain criminal activity; temporal and spatial proximity to the scene of a crime; physical description of suspects; knowledge of a suspects past criminal record or behavior; tips provided by identifiable subject.

The Connecticut Supreme Court has recently addressed the issue of restraining the subject of a Terry stop by the use of handcuffs. “Where an officer has a reasonable basis to think that the person stopped poses a present physical threat to the officer or others, the Fourth Amendment permits the officer to take necessary measures … to neutralize the threat without converting a reasonable stop into a de facto arrest …This doctrine has supported a range of restraints incident to a stop, from a pat-down…to the drawing of a firearm … to the use of handcuffs.”(3) In Nash, the Connecticut Supreme Court found it reasonable under the totality of identifiable circumstances, that handcuffing and removing a defendant to a secure location one-half block away from the gathering crowd did not, as a matter of law, exceed the permissible scope of an investigative stop and protective patdown. The Court states “[w]e do not require police officers who are properly attempting to neutralize the threat of physical harm to do so at increased peril.”(4)

As such, it is imperative that officers properly document the totality of the circumstances and articulate the specific reasons that you have chosen to handcuff an individual or place them into your secured cruiser during a temporary detention. It is always recommended to analyze the amount of restrain necessary when attempting to neutralize the threat present.

1/ Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968); State v. Lamme 216 Conn. 172 (1990)
2/ State v. Waz 240 Conn. 365, 373 n. 14 (1997).
3/ State v. Nash, 278 Conn. 620, 642 (2006)
4/ Id. at 644, quoting, State v. Wilkins, 240 Conn 489, 501-502 (1997)

=====================================================================

Talking about an empty holster, when pulled over for something as simple as expired tags, could raise the suspicions of the officer that the person may be armed. The one has nothing to do with the other. And just blurting out extemporaneous information has always been something this forum has suggested as unnecessary and potentially harmful.

Better to just answer the question or give the least amount of information then to ramble on. So as I see it, it isn't the empty holster but bringing it up, without being asked, that could be used against you.
 #26403  by Tate
 
[quote="stephpd"]I've been thinking and thinking about this and all I can come up with is the fact that Tate provide information that aroused the suspicion of the officer that something wasn't right. Telling the officer about the holster, when there is no law that we even inform them of any firearms in the vehicle, could be used as a reason to think something is wrong. quote]

Well i just was sitting there getting pulled over, the officer seemed like a decent guy, and in my mind i thought, well maybe its the right thing to tell him about a empty holster i have then for him to see it empty and think that i have a gun out, then take me out of the car at gun point etc. Well i just learned a valuable lesson, either dont have the holster empty, or dont tell them about anything.
 #26406  by George
 
Tate wrote: Well i just learned a valuable lesson, either dont have the holster empty, or dont tell them about anything.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
 #26409  by dave_in_delaware
 
I vote for this one:
Tate wrote:either dont have the holster empty, or dont tell them about anything.
 #26410  by cappilot06
 
I'm still going with the empty holster proudly and prominently displayed the next time I drive into MD to visit..usually twice a month. Maybe after a few stops and searches they'll get tired of it but maybe not. Either way, I don't really care if they do or not. It'll be a waste of their time and mine, but more a waste of their time than anything. I'll be standing there laughing my ass off the entire time and every time they stop me and search my car.